Kill the death penalty

As you’ve probably heard, a 24 year old woman was tragically murdered during Lil Kim’s birthday celebration last week in Manhattan.  The individual who is allegedly responsible has confessed to hitting her with a lead pipe after she refused his advances in the elevator (by the way, a lead pipe?  Really?  What is this, a game of Clue?).  This occurred shortly after she was removed from the club due to being heavily intoxicated, and the man who apparently killed her — a bartender’s assistant at the club — offered to help her find a friend.  Of course, everyone is now calling for this man’s head.  Miss Info proclaimed that he should “burn in hell,” a statement I found somewhat disturbing.  Sure, it’s natural to be angry at such news, but let’s take a step back and think about this logically.  As flawed as we all are as human beings, do we really feel comfortable condemning others?

This situation has sparked more debate about the death penalty.  I’m going to provide some of the exchange that occurred between Miss Info, EJ, and myself on the matter and I’d like to hear your opinions.

Miss Info: in cases where the guilty are really guilty…I’m sorry to say, but I don’t morally disagree with capital punishment. For one, I dont think some people will change (not can…but will). And I also dont feel comfortable taking care of them for the rest of their lives.

EJ: I gotta agree with Info, this cat should get fried if he did this. Then again, I’m from Texas.. soo.. haha. On some real shit though, this state (I recently relocated to NY) is just too leniant. Dudes can get away with anything here, so they do. Granted, there’s been some flaws with the system. I can’t argue that. At the same time though when the chair is involved a lot less people go out and act like they lost their marbles. So eventhough they fuck up and kill one innocent man every now then.. they probably saved a hundred in the process. Then again, thats just my opinion.

Pizon:

This is a very unfortunate situation, and I know our animal instincts tend to take over in times like these, but let’s not abandon morality.

The death penalty is unconstitutional and should be abolished as it falls under cruel and unusual punishment. Word to Nas: it’s simply barbaric and the fact that it’s allowed in this country is telling of the fact we’re not very far removed from third world savagery. EJ, you’re my boy and all, but you know I’ve done my research on this subject. There is no actual evidence that the death penalty discourages anyone from committing heinous acts. The fact is that if you have the capacity to commit such an act, you lack rational thought — either permanently or in the heat of the moment — and you don’t stop to think “I wonder what the consequences of this would be.” Anyone with that kind of reasoning would not be capable of that level of brutality. At that point, the same kind of primitive impulses that have people calling for the death penalty in this case takes over, and common sense goes out the window. If anything, the death penalty sends the message that killing is an acceptable response to unwanted actions. It’s the same principle behind kids getting the living shit beat out of them growing up to be abusive… because you’re supposed to hit people you love, right? If murder is wrong, then we cannot allow exceptions for the government.

Furthermore, the system itself is so flawed that it cannot be trusted to determine who lives and who dies. Info, you said you support capital punishment in cases where the guilty is “really guilty” and presented that as some sort of ideal. In actuality, it’s up to regular ass people to make the decision of who is “really guilty” and that introduces corruption and human error. Often, the defendant will not have the money to build a strong case, and he’s up against the DA who represents the entire state and has endless resources including the media on his side. Attorneys are supposed to “be fair” and if they come across evidence that would discredit their argument, they’re supposed to hand it over to the opposing attorneys. How often do you think that happens? Lawyers are in the business of winning cases for prestige and their own personal gains. As such, the entire process is largely bullshit. Shouldn’t the prospect of killing one innocent person be enough to realize something is fundamentally wrong? It is wrongful killing we’re so worked up over in the first place, right? Everyone says to imagine if it was your innocent daughter who was murdered by the bartender. That would suck, no doubt… Now imagine it was your innocent son who was murdered by the state.

RIP Ingrid Rivera.

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10 Responses to Kill the death penalty

  1. i agree with you homie.

    what about if the guy is innocent. it’s not ok to excute a few innocents here and there like that one dude said. that’s sacraficing human life and just saying oh well to it!

    and if we are killling that person, aren’t we just as wrong as that person for killing someone?

    when we lower ourselves to the level of those we become as bad as them in my opinion.

    iLL P

  2. Jesidra says:

    Proven without doubt (not reasonable doubt) if you murder someone in cold blood like is stated you should die. And personally age shouldn’t matter in an instance like this (remember those brothers who killed their parents? yeah they should’ve been killed then) Eye for an eye punishment, this guy bashed this woman’s head in with a lead pipe (and admitted to it) and so someone should do it to him. And yes I have it in me to do it. Life is precious but not when it’s taken for granted. Then again I also believe stupid people shouldn’t breed and those who take without giving should be punished. Eye for an eye.

    Pizon you wrote about the death penalty not being discouraging and prevent crimes. The death penalty isn’t about preventing crimes it’s about punishing those who take a life or lives. Punishing those who rape children and and other human beings. No example comes from death ever. If the death penalty was meant as an example we’d be no better than Hitler. “Lets line people up and shoot them for all crimes founded and unfounded.” No it’s not meant to be an example or prevent it from happening by others.

    Again if someone professes to killing someone for no good reason (i.e. self defense) then that person deserves to have done to them what they’ve done. Eye for an eye.

  3. Pizon says:

    Jesidra, you keep repeating the phrase “Eye for an eye” like it’s a good thing. Do you not realize that concept comes from the Old Testament and is outdated an idea as slavery (neither of which were good ideas to begin with)? If I steal a loaf of bread, do you believe my hand should be cut off? That’s what your lex talionis justice system would call for. So, you don’t believe the death penalty should be used to set examples or prevent future crimes from happening. What possible use could it serve then? Just to kill someone who did something you’re not happy with? It’s a shame you aren’t the only one with that mentality, or else Ingrid Rivera would still be alive.

    “An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.” -Gandhi

  4. Jesidra says:

    First I’m a Thelemic Pagan. My eye for an eye view has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religious view. The Egyptians had a similar system for a while. Yes the hand should be cut off or at least a finger on a first offense. I guess I say that jokingly but I actually believe it to be true. If a man rapes someone his d!ck should be cut off. If a woman rapes someone an equal punishment for the crime (not exactly sure how that one would work).

    “So, you don’t believe the death penalty should be used to set examples or prevent future crimes from happening. What possible use could it serve then? Just to kill someone who did something you’re not happy with?”
    Again I’ll say the penalty has nothing to with the mentality of setting an example or preventing anything in the future. Humanity barely survives let alone lives with the standards supplied to us. Would you have every murderous being stuck in jail for the rest of his or her life? Providing the crime was realized without any doubt I would think being in prison with better food and amenities than most of us see on a regular basis isn’t cruel and unusual punishment. Basically with that system we’re awarding people for murder don’t you think? You can say my view is wrong and I’ll respect you and your opinion, but look at it the way I just said it. You’re saying in the case of murder; prison (more or less a confined health spa get away, and therefore a reward in a lot of ways) is better than punishment? What’s to keep people who have nothing in life from kill someone else in a state that doesn’t have the death penalty simply so they can go to prison and have more of a life? Heck a bum on the street can kill someone, go to prison, finally have a bed, have 3 meals a day, watch satellite tv, have a work out room and live the rest of their in luxury rather than squalor because without repercussion they have nothing to lose.

  5. Pizon says:

    Well, your views are definitely… out there. It’s hard to argue with someone who believes digits should be cut off for shoplifting and that Lorena Bobbitt’s policies should be adopted into our legal system. I’m not sure you understand the Constitution, however, when you say “Being in prison…isn’t cruel and unusual punishment” and use that as a case for the death penalty, because the Eighth Amendment expressly prohibits exactly that. Do you disagree with the Bill of Rights? Even if you want to argue that the death penalty isn’t cruel and unusual, cutting off a man’s dick certainly is. Your diatribe about prison being comparable to a “health spa” is downright ignorant, and I’d suggest you do more research on prison culture: particularly how sex offenders, rapists, and transgressors against women are treated by the population. If you really believe you’d be living in “luxury” with “better food and amenities than most of us” why don’t you do a bid? Your life must really suck right now, since I’m assuming someone is telling you when you can take a shower, eat dinner, and sit in your backyard. Anything besides murdering this man falls under “without repercussion”? Get real. Finally, I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up yet, but it actually costs taxpayers less money to keep someone in prison for life than it does to execute. This is due to appeals and the drawn-out legal process, which by the way also violates the Sixth Amendment’s right to a speedy trial.

  6. Jayyo says:

    I actually did a report on corporal punishment, and pretty much what it narrows down to is this.. if we let that guy go, this is what’s going to happen, it’s going to send a bad message to all other sex offenders and killers; that if you do it and get cought – ehh so you’ll stay locked up for a few years in prison, and then you know how much tax money it takes a day to keep these guys locked up? around $50 a day. So pretty much we’re saying, you can kill somebody, and I’ll give you a place to live and provide food, libraries and a field for you to do all your activities.
    And on another quick note on the expense of the death penalty – the reason why it costs so much; due to the legal process, is because there are always anti-capital punishment activist and laywers trying to make a few bucks out of the whole situation. Believe me that if there were nobody protesting the execution for these murderers, the expense wouldn’t be high at all or would it take long. And just think about it, WE ARE paying more money in the long run maintaing and providing for these muderers in the jail cell. Within five years Tax payers have payed off over 91 thousand dollars for just one inmate!! it’s bad enough that we have to spend that already on your regular crooks and robbers. And we could easily be spending that money in education, housing or other more prominent projects.

  7. Jesidra says:

    We can keep arguing points of view forever. I don’t believe in most of what our government today does. I’m a borderline Anarchist to be honest. The Bill of Rights in todays society is nothing more than something for politico people to hide behind. Once upon a time those views and rights were more or less upheld. Today they’re nothing but a farce. I’m a single mother who believes that if someone were to murder my child her murderer deserves the same retribution. Life sucking or not has nothing to do with the issue. You say prison is a bad thing because a life is being controlled. That’s an arguable point from a murderers perspective. “Hmm…let’s see…do I want to die or do I want to sit in prison for the rest of my life?” The person either basically has his life in society taken away or they die. Doesn’t seem like it would be a hard decision to make. I know prison isn’t a walk in the park but compared to dying it sure as heck is. As for the money issue I’d willing pay for it if it came to our state (NY). Heck I’d be happy to have all the taxes I pay go for something as right as the death penalty.

  8. Pizon says:

    Jayyo, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. It’s kind of a catch 22 because you’re guaranteed the right to a fair AND speedy trial, but rushing through it and putting someone to death who may or may not be guilty would hardly be fair. And that’s if you even believe in the morality of capital punishment to begin with. I do find it utterly ridiculous that you look at any alternative as “letting the guy go” and downplay a hard sentence as “ehhh so you’ll stay locked up for a few years in prison.” Life without parole is hardly “a few years” and being ass raped repeatedly for the rest of your natural life is NOT a vacation. No, prison rape is not guaranteed or even justified in my mind but like I said, those kind of criminals tend to be treated harshly by other prisoners. Why do people have this idea that jail is fun and easy? It could be argued that a life sentence is a harsher punishment than death — one lingers on, and one is quick and relatively painless. Either way, freedom is lost forever.

    Jesidra, I agree with you that the Bill of Rights in today’s world is essentially a farce. Blame Bush and the Patriot Act for that. The problem is that I feel these are liberties we should be fighting for, and you apparently don’t. Supposedly the terrorists attacked us because they were “jealous of our liberties,” and our government responded by… stripping us of our liberties. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I realize the capital punishment issue transcends 9/11 and the Bush administration, but my point is that the Bill of Rights as a whole needs to be upheld. The fact that it’s being shit all over is a major problem we face in 2008. And once again, the argument that anyone would choose being removed from society forever over death is debatable at best.

    I noticed both of you throwing around the word “murderers” as if people who commit such crimes are somehow not human beings like their victims. Assuming they really are guilty (and this goes back to Miss Info’s ideal that in our system is virtually impossible to prove conclusively), they’ve done a horrible thing. Our difference in philosophy lies in my belief that murdering someone who has murdered is also murder. Trying to justify it makes as much sense to me as saying we can’t have free speech anymore because the evil-doers don’t. Huh?

  9. in response to the eye for an eye philosophy, if we do eye for an eye, violence will never cease. if you believe you’d kill the guy that killed that woman, would it be right that someone thought you should die kill you for killing him? think about it, eye for an eye will never ever end with that type of mindframe.

  10. EJ says:

    I say let em hang.. don’t even waste the electricity. I feel what you’re saying about the court system trying to get over on people.. true. If there’s some doubt to the case then maybe those guys shouldn’t die.. but what Miss Info was saying (and I agree) is that if I walk out of a room with only one exit, cops are waiting outside, there’s dead bodies inside and I got a gun in one hand and blood on the other.. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to say I should get the chair.

    Yeah, the system fucks up sometimes.. but it fucks up both ways. R. Kelly has a ton of evidence against him and walks away, then again Shawn Bell had a ton of evidence and the cops walked away. They should hang too. If there’s no shadow of a doubt that you did a vile and heinous act.. good riddance.

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